Housewife Has Questions, Part 2
Monday, April 16, 2007 at 10:48AM Continuing on with Housewife’s questions. (Part 1 is here.)
Housewife finishes her list with these two questions:
Is part of your mission in life to convert people to your religion?
Do you really think that G-d is angry with people who don’t pray the same way you do?
I’m going to start with the second question first, because my answer to the first one builds on my answer to the second.
Do I think that God is angry with people who don’t pray the same way I do?
In order to answer this question, I have to qualify it a bit. God’s anger with people has nothing to do with praying the same way I do, as if, first of all, it’s primarily a method of prayer that matters; and secondly, that doing things my way has some significance. I do believe God is angry with people, but never because they don’t pray my way. He may be angry over certain methods of prayer, but that would be only secondary to the real issue—whether they are worshipping him, the God who is.
And that’s the biggie, the bottom line, the universal truth that no one escapes: God is there; we know it; we don’t worship him. We all know God is there because we look out and see the universe and the world we live in. Deep down, we know that it all didn’t come from nothing, but from something or someone.
That’s not to say that people know everything there is to know about the something or someone from which it all came by looking out and seeing what there is, but we do know some important things: the Creator is unlike the universe and more than the universe; existing not only in the universe, but also outside or beyond the universe. In other words, the one who created the universe exists in a category of one: the only uncaused, the only independent, the only self-existent. We, on the other hand, are caused by the uncaused, dependent on the independent, existent only as long as the self-existent sustains us.
And because we know that God is there and we know these things about him, we also know that this is the sort of God to whom we owe worship. But none of us do that, and there’s the rub. We either deny God exists at all, or we choose to think of him as something different—less, actually—than we know he really is. We bring him down into categories we know and understand from experience—categories we know, deep down, don’t apply to him. We think of him or imagine him as something more like we are and way less than he is, because we are more comfortable with something more like we are, something not quite so “other”. That’s bringing God down to our level or (probably more accurately) raising us up to his. The Bible calls this trading the truth about God for a lie, and yes, it draws out God’s righteous indignation, or his anger, as you call it.
Is part of your mission in life to convert people to your religion?
I believe that the only way out from under God’s righteous indignation is through the good news that God sent his own Son as Saviour for everyone who believes in him. It’s good news, and I believe it’s good news that everyone needs, since everyone falls rightfully under God’s indignation.
I guess my answer to your question would be yes and no. I wish everyone would believe the good news; I think everyone needs to hear the good news; I think helping to spread the good news it my duty. If I believe this good news the only way out from under God’s righteous indignation, and I care about other people, what kind of person would I be if I didn’t share it? But at the same time, I’m not going bop someone upside the head with a two-by-four to get them to sign on the dotted line. Getting someone to sign on the dotted line whether they want to or not isn’t my responsibility.
Reader Comments (10)
I think maybe he has righteous indignation because he loves us. Something I'm pondering.
I think righteous indignation is simply God being a perfect judge, and in that sense it stands in contrast to his love. Because he loves, he saves people from his perfect judgment. Justice condemns; love saves from condemnation. And thankfully, our God is loving as well as just, or we'd be in deep doo-doo.
If by righteous indignation you mean not God's wrath, but God's chastening, then yes, it comes from love, but then it's not retribution (or justice), but a saving activity, meant to keep us becoming what he wants us to be.
I'm not really sure what happens in the New Testament, although I do plan on reading it but as a Jew I know that G-d cares deeply how I behave and less deeply in what I think.
We are taught to question everything, that our intellect is a divine gift. The commandments (more than just 10) do not include any instructions about what to think, they are simply rules of behavior.
I enjoy your blog as it appears that you behave well (i.e. demonstrate kindness and tolerance) it's a good thing because I've found that many of the loudest X-tian voices I hear forget to sprinkle themselves with kindness and humility.
That makes sense Rebecca - here's what I'm pondering. "God is love", but it doesn't say "God is righteous indignation" - so I think that everything comes out of God's love - that's his motive for everything. If he is righteously indignant it is because he loves justice - and he loves his creation - so his love cannot abide the wilful destruction of what comes from his love - he cannot accept injustice - he is love and love is not unjust. He does forbear, but forbearance isn't acceptance.
What do you think?
Housewife - I like what you said about our intellect being a divine gift - I have often thought that myself.
I do plan on reading it . . .
Good plan. . .
The commandments (more than just 10) do not include any instructions about what to think, they are simply rules of behavior.
Of course, the central rule of behaviour - the one all the commandments hang on - is the acknowledgement, in intellect and action, that there is one God (or that God is one.)
That makes sense Rebecca - here's what I'm pondering. "God is love", but it doesn't say "God is righteous indignation"
Well, it says "God is" about several of his attributes, including righteousness, so I wouldn't think we could take "God is love" as a statement of a central or overarching attribute. If God has an overarching attribute, it's his holiness. It's the only attribute triply emphasised, and that was a way of stressing something. And Isaiah's response to seeing God's holiness was "Woe is me, for I am undone."
But I wouldn't call righteous indignation an attribute, really, anyway. I'd think it's an expression of God's attribute of righteousness or justice toward sin—-righteousness and justice being the same thing, really. I know we separate them because in English, they are different words, but in the biblical languages, they aren't. So if I were going to attribute God's righteous indignation to any attribute as a "motive", it would have to be his righteousness/justice.
- so I think that everything comes out of God's love - that's his motive for everything.
I wouldn't say love is his motive for everything. I'd say God is always a loving God, but I wouldn't think that love is behind every action toward every person. In fact, I'd think God's love and his justice are contrasted over and over again for us, as in "Behold the kindness and severity of God."
That's not to say one act can't be both just and loving, just that it's not usually just and loving toward the same people as objects of the same action. God's rescuing of Israel from Egypt was an expression of love toward his people, but it was an expression of justice (or judgment) for the Egyptians. That's the amazing thing about the cross: it's where justice and mercy (or love) meet in one action and in one person. The two things that previously stood over against each other come together —finally- in the cross: mercy for sinners in Christ; and justice for their sin in Christ, so that it is just for God to give them mercy.
And that the cross was even necessary shows that it's God's righteousness that governs his expression of love rather than the other way around. The cross vindicates God for having previously been lovingly merciful toward sinners by giving him a righteous way to be merciful toward them.
If he is righteously indignant it is because he loves justice
- and he loves his creation -
I think that's one factor, and a very important one. But I don't think it's the whole story. Romans 1 puts God's wrath toward people for not glorifying him and not thanking him or acknowledging him front and center, and puts the "human relations" sins as a result of God's judgment for not acknowledging him in the first place. It's like a snowball running downhill, getting bigger and bigger as it goes. But at the core of the snowball, what started the whole ball rolling downhill in the first place, is not worshiping or acknowledging God.
He does forbear, but forbearance isn't acceptance.
I agree. Eventually the justice has to come.
Ok. I agree mostly. I guess I see love as containing both justice and mercy (kindness and severity) - I see it as containing both. Then John 3:16 makes sense to me - For God so loved the world - that he provides both justice and mercy. We aren't just forgiven, we're justified. Both from him so loving the world...
What you say about judgment for the Egyptians is a good point. I'll think about that.
Then John 3:16 makes sense to me - For God so loved the world - that he provides both justice and mercy.
I'd think it's more that God so loved the world that he provides a just way for him to be merciful. If you take verse 16 with verse 17:
God didn't send his son to condemn the world, and condemnation would be justice for the world (apart from the love of God in Christ, of course.) God so loved that he sends his son to save sinners from his retributive justice. God so loved the world that he saves those who believe from the condemnation that would be the expression of God's justice apart from the love of God in Christ.
We aren't just forgiven, we're justified.
Yes. And our justification is grounded in both God's love and his justice, but I don't think that means that God's justice comes from his love. In fact, I'd think we have an example of God's justice apart from his love in the statement "the wages of sin is death." The one receiving death as wages for sin isn't on the receiving end of God's love in that act of condemnation. But when the two come together—love and justice—then it's justification "freely as a gift": Christ-earned merit (justice) given to us as a gift (love).
I'm not sure I buy N.T. Wright's statement that it's God's love that means "he must also be angry at everything that distorts human life", except in a limited way. And perhaps he means it in that same limited way, given the context of the statement, which is against those who say that God is love so he has no real wrath at all. His point, perhaps, is that if God really loves people, then he is going to vindicate them because he loves them. I do think that God protects and vindicates people out of his love for them, and that results in God's wrath being expressed against those who hurt, destroy, oppress people. God's love for the Israelites was a factor in him judging the Egyptians, for example. So in that sense, one could say that God's love for Israel means he must also be angry at the Egyptians, but at the same time, his judgment of the Egyptians is not an expression of his love for the Egyptians. It's sort of one-sided in that way.
God's judgment of the Egyptians, however, an expression of his justice or righteousness to both parties, not just one. It's retributive justice on behalf of those treated unjustly, and retributive justice to those who have treated others unjustly.
I'm not sure I've noticed God's wrath being associated with his love in scripture, either. God's wrath is associated with his righteousness or justice, though, so I have no trouble relating his wrath to those things, and I'd think that's the point about God's justice that ought to be emphasised, because it's the one emphasised in scripture.
Thanks for taking the time to write all that Rebecca. It seems to be more that wrath is not associated with love - but justice can be (and is in Christ's sacrifice).